327 update

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68ragtop
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327 update

Postby 68ragtop » Fri May 19, 2017 11:06 am

So the 327 in my '68 has been in need of work for, well for as long as I've owned it. Only work done 4 years ago was been to replace the valve springs and seals as the dampers in them had shattered and chewed up the valve stem seals. I did wonder where the metal went but am just hoping based on the engine still running that somehow it got flushed out in one of the many oil changes. Even with the new umbrella valve seals oil is still leaking down the probably worn valve guides from the heads and drowning the spark plugs meaning every 200km they are caked and dripping (but I still run them for another 1000 km or so). Had one of the rockers come loose and pop off a while back as well but didn't seem to damage the pushrod but could be another problem waiting to happen. So have decided to splash out after a few years saving and replace the old heads with nice new alloy ones and see what happens.

First up, a list of what I I have decoded over the years that I am working with currently in the car:
  • 327 block from a '68 K20 truck, single bolt main, original 327 small journal forged steel crank. Can still read pad so possible it was never decked.
  • Dual plane high rise aluminium intake from a 1969 Z-28 Camaro
  • 1977 Heads off a 305. If still stock they are 63cc with 1.72/1.5 valves, but notes from prev owner indicate they might have been modified.
  • Stamped steel roller tip rockers
  • Trick Flow hardened pushrods
  • Doug Herbert retro fit roller cam. Grind details from his site shows info like advertised duration 280/305, duration at .050 225/235, lift .500/.500 with 1.5 rockers, lobe center 112 degrees
  • roller lifters.
  • Double roller timing chain with keyways available for advance/retard in 4 degree increments
  • SummitRacing HEI dizzy. Initial set at 12 degrees. Mechanical adds 10deg by 1500RPM, Vac advance provides 10degrees.
  • Holley 650DP running rich (or theres a vac leak). Think I jetted it down to 67/71 last time i fiddled with it - as was super rich at 69/73!!!, 28 nozzles.

So all that puts down a current eye watering 207 rwhp at about 4100rpm (the eye watering is from all the unburnt fuel out the exhaust). Engine still pulls hard especially as at 100kph it's at 3100rpm and planting the foot gives a nice burst despite gassing anyone in a car following.

So the plan is to just get new heads, pushrods and rocker arms, take the top of the engine and hope the deck/pistons/cylinders still all look ok (as budget will be taken up by the heads), and then bolt on the new shiny bits and maybe borrow a known good spare Holley 600 vac secondary carb off a bloke in the local club to test with.

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Re: 327 update

Postby 68ragtop » Fri May 19, 2017 1:38 pm

Some pics of what I have dealt with and am starting with now:

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Re: 327 update

Postby 68ragtop » Fri May 19, 2017 1:56 pm

And the first step is the new heads. Spoke with a lot of people and looked at a lot of google. Then hunted for what discount vouchers I could find for online. In the end have ended up with these that arrived yesterday from Summitracing. Possibly would have been cheaper in the end to order online locally from VPW, but they didn't have them in stock and quoted end of June to get them in. I'm too iimpatrient for that.

Edelbrock Aluminium Performer RPM heads. 64cc chambers, 185cc intake runner, standard 2.02/160 valves, and springs that support up to .600 lift.

Image

Next purchase decision will be working out what the best value rocker options are to top it off as I feel it deserves new ones and not just reuse of my old ones.

Then on to pulling things to check the internals, ordering gaskets, probably stripping the orange paint off the intake, and planning on puttng it all back together again in the hope it runs.

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Re: 327 update

Postby DOC » Fri May 19, 2017 7:42 pm

All sounds interesting. my now somewhat stagnate thread on my 350 is simular although with less history.
Much less optimistic about my 40 year old engine as new cam, pistons and bearings are going in mine.
As well as new head bolts, Etc. However I did decide to keep my rockers, which were replaced just 10K ago with 1.6-1 style summit ones.
Me, I'm down to the last 500 bucks or so, but time seems to be the biggest issue.
I have been behind you on a few runs Mate, I hear you screaming about the fumes.
Hoping you get her all together much quicker than your trailing arm rebuild. But then who am I to talk, look how long I've had my engine apart. yet I rebuild engines almost everyday.
Anyway, Keep us all posted on the progress, Perhaps you will give me inspiration to get back into mine and get it done as well.
Best of luck Mate! hoping there are no surprises when you get it all apart.

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Re: 327 update

Postby Wobbles » Sun May 21, 2017 11:22 am

68ragtop wrote:And the first step is the new heads. Spoke with a lot of people and looked at a lot of google. Then hunted for what discount vouchers I could find for online. In the end have ended up with these that arrived yesterday from Summitracing. Possibly would have been cheaper in the end to order online locally from VPW, but they didn't have them in stock and quoted end of June to get them in. I'm too iimpatrient for that.

Edelbrock Aluminium Performer RPM heads. 64cc chambers, 185cc intake runner, standard 2.02/160 valves, and springs that support up to .600 lift.

Image

Next purchase decision will be working out what the best value rocker options are to top it off as I feel it deserves new ones and not just reuse of my old ones.

Then on to pulling things to check the internals, ordering gaskets, probably stripping the orange paint off the intake, and planning on puttng it all back together again in the hope it runs.



Sure is purty ragtop. Hope you got another one that looks pretty much the same! :D

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Re: 327 update

Postby 68ragtop » Tue May 23, 2017 8:27 pm

I do. Although buying from the US just came back to bite me in the a$$. Opened up the other box out i the shed to check out the nice shiny head in it, turned it over and F*ck me it's got a scratch in the mating surface running fully between the middle two chambers :evil: Will check it further once it's light tomorrow but will be cheaper to get it resurfaced I'm guessing than return postage to the US.

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Re: 327 update

Postby DOC » Wed May 24, 2017 7:15 am

Really depends on the depth of the scratch. A minor scratch with good gaskets shouldn't be a problem.
A touch of good gasket sealer over the scratch should make it all good. Unless your running super high compression,
Or forced induction, Or if said scratch is really deep. I wouldn't lose to much sleep over it.

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Re: 327 update

Postby 68ragtop » Wed May 24, 2017 10:36 am

Just looks light in the photo but it's enough to catch my fingernail on running across it which is what concerned me. Might just take a super fine sandpaper on a flat bar to it as not a lot to lose. Especially as looking in daylight this afternoon I noticed I must have knocked one of the big staples holding the box closed into the packaging when I was first opening it up....then put the head back down on top of it. :evil:
Image

Looks like they also slipped when doing the fininshing work on once chamber too but I'm not too worried about the location of that one.
Image

A bunch of other small nicks here and there on them. Also need blowing out with air to get rid of some machining swarf I've fouund stillin there. May also do a bit of bit of sanding/grinding with the dremel where they left some rough spots in some of the ports. I think I know now why head shops charge the way they do. Lots to be done on even a new out of the box head.

In better news a box just turned up with the head bolts, pushrods and some spark plugs. Just gaskets and rockers left to buy. Oh and thread sealer as just found mine has gone off after 3 years in my hot shed.

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Re: 327 update

Postby DOC » Wed May 24, 2017 7:32 pm

The Scratch looks super minor. Trying to sand it down will only lower the head at that point.
A touch of 1104 3bond sealer, Just a touch, will be all that will be needed, if that.
A few less than perfect marks in your ports really wont mean shit in a street engine.
It's the shape of the port that matters as with the size. Polished ports my look great. But it has been proven they don't flow any better.
And who the F**k is going to see them when it's all bolted up.
as per your pushrods, How did you predetermine the correct length before you installed your heads and torqued them down?
Or do you have a working crystal ball? (Mine is still in the shop).

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Re: 327 update

Postby Bazzas77 » Thu May 25, 2017 7:15 am

Just be careful with those Elderbrock heads!! A mate here bought some for his mustang ( with the same quality control?) and he had a valve bind up within minutes of getting it running . He LOST HIS BRAND NEW MOTOR, totally destroyed it. No warranty as it was a "performance application "

If you got any paperwork with them , check and see if it says anything about opening up the tolerances on the vavles for performance usage. If none then go on their site and look for disclaimers

After his effort I wouldnt put them anywhere near your engine until they are checked out .

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Re: 327 update

Postby DOC » Fri May 26, 2017 7:00 pm

I find that very interesting. Always heard good things about Edlebrock products.
I have a set here ready to put on my car as well.

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Re: 327 update

Postby Ollie68 » Fri May 26, 2017 9:18 pm

If I can offer my two bobs worth, I do a lot of night shift and you tube is my friend, anyway do a leak down test of the inlet and then the exhaust valves.
IE: place the head on its side and fill the inlet with liquid, ( brake cleaner or wd40 ) and leave it over night. in the morning check and see if there is any runs into to the bowl or chamber. Flip it over and do the exhaust, its a easy inexpensive test to ensure the valves have been seated correctly.
:D
Ollie

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Re: 327 update

Postby 68ragtop » Sat May 27, 2017 1:52 pm

Good advice. Might try that this weekend.

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Re: 327 update

Postby 68ragtop » Sat Jun 03, 2017 5:59 pm

So I'm guessing that 2 exhaust and all 4 intake valves failing the leak test on a head is a bad thing right? Jury rigged a lever to push some valves open a bit and put some low pressure air through the intake then re ran test. Didn't leak as much, so gonna borrow a spring compressor and drop the valves to check no crap is in the seat like I have found in the rest of the head. Edelbrock definitely gets a F for quality from me now.

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Re: 327 update

Postby Ollie68 » Sun Jun 04, 2017 7:28 am

Its quite possible its just swarf and crap but its a good thing to check before putting it on the car and find compression leakage?
Worst case you have the valves properly re seated :evil:
:D
Ollie

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Re: 327 update

Postby DOC » Sun Jun 04, 2017 2:13 pm

A little lapping compound and some hand work should be all that is needed, unless they really buggered them up.

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Re: 327 update

Postby 68ragtop » Sun Jun 04, 2017 7:44 pm

Blew a bunch of air through the second d head while cracking each valve a little to blow out any crud in there. Only 1 intake and 1 exhaust port showing leakage when tested after that. Will take them apart next weekend to check further.

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Re: 327 update

Postby 68ragtop » Sat Jul 01, 2017 11:25 am

Finally took the spring off and dropped one of the leaking exhaust valves. Looks like it is some bronze dust/filings from the guides stuck in some light assembly oil that was on the valve seat. Will clean it off and check the others as I suspect they are all the same. Messy assembly job from the factory though in my opinion.

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Re: 327 update

Postby DOC » Tue Jul 18, 2017 8:32 pm

Well, Were starting to look at time passing by. So I thought I'd put in my 2 bobs worth.
I agree that it sounds like Edlebrock has done a fairly sloppy job cleaning up and assembling these heads.
But, 2 minutes of running and these heads would most likely seat themselves in.
I'm wondering if all this time cleaning them up and reseating Valves that would likely bed in quickly is truly worth the trouble.
This is a street car after all, Your not going for top times at the strip.
You need to run the new cam in for about 30 minutes at 2,000 to 2,500 RPM to break in the lifters.
Should be enough to set the valves into the seats as well one would think.
How about you get this baby going?
If you need a listing of what pushrods and such I came up with on mine, just ask.

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Re: 327 update

Postby 68ragtop » Tue Sep 05, 2017 4:28 pm

Excuse the size of the pics below, but with Photobucket now gone I'm testing IMGUR for hosting the pics and it doesn't seem to resize as nicely.

Since the last post I've gone over the new heads and pulled all the springs so I could clean up around the valves. Most seems good after that a couple were still seeping a bit. A little lapping with a very fine lapping fluid seems to have gotten them sealing perfect or good enough for me anyway.
Image

Now that that was done I started taking apart the engine on Sunday to get ready for the head swap. Pulled off the altenator, took off the clutch fan (for access to turn the crank later) drained the radiator and and took off the top radiator, and heater hoses. Fluid was good looked a lot cleaner that I was expecting. Even found the slight mystery leak on the left hand side was actually coming from the drain tap.
Image

Next started on the Dizzy. Tried undoing the tach cable and found it was really stiff to turn. Didn't remember it being this tough 7 years ago when I put it on. Turns out it didn't want to separate and actually unscrewed the entire tach drive gear unit from the dizzy!
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Unplugged the wires at the spark plugs, and left them on the dizzy as I removed it. labelled the wire seperators so I knew which wire was which for later. It all looked in ok condition as it came out. After it was out I did notice the oil pressure tube fitting looked to be leaking a bit so there's one more thing to add to the list of things to replace. Also as I was pulling wires i knocked the vacuum line off the wiper door actuator. As some oil seeped out I'm going to have to figure out how that got there (although I am guessing the loose vacuum connection I found may have been sucking oil mist from under the hood for a long time). Actuator still worked well under vacuum so at least it's not too much to worry about.
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Next up pulled the carby off, and unbolted the intake manifold. It was held on with about a metric ton of solid grey RTV at both ends but using a putty knife I managed to get through it and separate the ends and eventually pull it off. Seems to have super thick intake gaskets on it as well.
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Most of the intake gasket seals looked like they were ok and not actually leaking into the ports, although the amount of oil residue in the intake runners was about what I expected given what I expect to be poorly sealing valves, and from when the PCV was actually blowing oil mist through back into the carb.
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Started pulling bits off the intake and the water neck came off easy as it had a sweet reusable gasket under it sealing everything up. Unfortunately Bubba had had his way with the thermostat and there are 8 large holes drilled in it. One I have heard off for letting air bubbles bleed through, but 8? ::
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Leaving that I headed back to the heads. Removed the left rocker cover and started pulling the rocker arms and pushrods. Most were ok, although on one I'm picking there must have been a bit play than there should be as it looked like the nut had started cutting into the pivot. Pic doesn't show it but there was a little loose material in between them.
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So by this stage I have an engine that looked a little like this, so I thought while I'm here I'll check on the lifters.
Image


And at this point is where things start going downhill in my quick and easy head swap plans. Pulled the lifters and they turn out to be solid roller lifters and not hydraulic like I thought, based on the fact I can't get any movement at all out of the pushrod seat on them. That's not really too much of a problem. What was is that on Cylinder 3 they looked like this with a bit of marking on one of the rollers (exhaust side).
Image

Then I pulled the lifters for Cylinder 5, they looked sweet. Next Cylinder 1's lifters, not so much. Roller is toast which was the best part of the problem. First pic is what I found in my sump 3 years ago and always wondered what it was. Second pic is it's source :evil:
Image
Image

All I can say is that in the last 3 years I am glad all those little needle bearings didn't manage to escape and grenade the whole engine, especially on some of the full throttle runs around Lakeside raceway earlier this year! :shock: So at this point I'm thinking I'm now up for a a new set of lifters and probably a new cam as peering down the #1 lifter bore I can see matching etching on the cam lobes. So next I go to remove the last set of lifters and.... nope. :evil: The back exhaust port lifter on cylinder 7 will only pull out some of the way before it catches. Tried a little bit more force but no way it is coming all the way out. All I can think is that maybe something like the roller pin has backed out a bit and it stopping it coming up through the lifter bore.

So now I think my quick head swap has turned into pulling the whole engine and trying to get the cam and stubborn lifter out, getting it rebuilt by someone else, or looking for a 2nd hand replacement. However with a wedding coming up in just over a month it's probably gonna be next year some time before I can save up the $$$ again for any more parts let alone a new heart for the vette. :cry:

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Re: 327 update

Postby DOC » Tue Sep 05, 2017 6:56 pm

First off, Thanks for such a thural write up and great pic's.
Second, Now you know why I did my engine when my cam and heads failed.
Best of luck. Hope you get her purring soon.

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Re: 327 update

Postby 68ragtop » Tue Sep 12, 2017 6:28 pm

Well a little percussive maintenance and the final lifter is out. Looks like it had a tiny bit of grit in the groove on it that was catching in the bore as it was coming out. Seems like it might actually be a tiny fragment of the old plastic valve stem seals.

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Re: 327 update

Postby DOC » Wed Sep 13, 2017 6:43 am

Glad to hear you finally got it out! big step forward.

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Re: 327 update

Postby 68ragtop » Wed Sep 13, 2017 8:26 am

So of course now the question is what cam to go with in the little 327, and whether to stick with solid roller or go hydraulic roller.

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Re: 327 update

Postby DOC » Wed Sep 13, 2017 8:07 pm

Knowing you, and your financial situation. flat tappet cam is the only way to go.
(Talk with Craig) good oils for flat tappet cams are available, and if you look at my rebuild thread you will see that so are the correct additives.
Which cam? there are so many choices out there, however, the one and yes the same one Craig chose, Works great without going overboard.
Check all the spec's in my thread, right down to the correct pushrod length to use.
Your 327 is a GREAT engine. you just need to keep the oil in her. Remember how the factory meant it to run, remember that those factory engines lasted a long long time. remember KISS. Keep it simple stupid!
You want it to last? or you want the utmost power?
Last.... KISS
POWER.... ask the next guy.
BUT, ... Did you ever catch me at lakeside?
And I never blew up.
Nuf said

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Re: 327 update

Postby DOC » Wed Sep 13, 2017 8:23 pm

So, I guess I'm saying, that your 327 never came with a roller cam of any type. you had a roller cam in it and have had nothing but dramas.
broken valve springs and f****d seal's and unreal oil consumption.
This engine for street use should be run with a flat tappet hydraulic cam.
My totally honest opinion.

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Re: 327 update

Postby riverracer » Thu Sep 14, 2017 9:34 pm

i'm about to bite the bullet on a set of performer rpm heads as well.

which model/part number did you go for?
Speed has never killed anyone,
Suddenly becoming stationary that's what gets you.

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Re: 327 update

Postby Bazzas77 » Sat Sep 16, 2017 11:27 am

DOC wrote: Your 327 is a GREAT engine.
You want it to last? or you want the utmost power?
Last.... KISS
POWER.... ask the next guy.
BUT, ... DID YOU EVER CATCH ME AT LAKESIDE ?
And I never blew up.
Nuf said


Well , that sounds like a challenge to me , a nice lumpy old school flat tappet type cam (but a modern version of one ) . Just the ticket for some fun on that track later on ! :-x

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Re: 327 update

Postby 68ragtop » Sat Sep 16, 2017 5:46 pm

riverracer wrote:i'm about to bite the bullet on a set of performer rpm heads as well.

which model/part number did you go for?


They were the 60995 complete heads... to suit the roller cam.


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